If I decided tomorrow to publish a pamphelet on letterboxing and sell it
for a small profit what is to stop me from down loading all the clues from
the website and including them in my pamphelet. I know of at least on case
where something similar has happened to an electronic source of information
(The hardcopy netted those persons quite a bit of money). I think this is
the sort of thing we are worried about and I think that those fears are
somewhat justified especially as letterboxing as a hobby expands.
I think a simple statement authorizing personal use but not distributon may
be what is called for. It is nice to believe that everbody is good and
will not abuse the situation and I personally believe that the vast
majority of people are. But it only takes one person that believes that
"thar is gold in them thar hills" and the situtation changes.
Todd Lane Ph.D.
Professional Research Staff
Department of Geosciences
Princeton University
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Ownership and laws
15 messages in this thread |
Started on 1999-05-07
[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Todd Lane (tlane@Princeton.EDU) |
Date: 1999-05-07 15:20:11 UTC-04:00
[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Marty Chamberlain (martyc@cyberdude.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 15:52:02 UTC-04:00
At 12:53 PM 5/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Daniel Servatius wrote:
>
>> Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
>> Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
>> theory)?
>
>We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
>begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
>defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
>
>I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
My $0.02 USD:
I'd favor a statement that says something to the effect of "You may use any
materials on the Letterboxing USA website for personal, non-commercial use
only. You may not sell, use in conjuntion with a commercial enterprise, or
otherwise profit from the use of these materials." Can you tell I'm not a
lawyer? heh heh
I think something like that's a good compromise between too restrictive,
and protecting the material from commercial exploitation by "the bad guys".
There you have my two cents.
Marty
--
50 by Y2K
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>Daniel Servatius wrote:
>
>> Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
>> Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
>> theory)?
>
>We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
>begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
>defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
>
>I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
My $0.02 USD:
I'd favor a statement that says something to the effect of "You may use any
materials on the Letterboxing USA website for personal, non-commercial use
only. You may not sell, use in conjuntion with a commercial enterprise, or
otherwise profit from the use of these materials." Can you tell I'm not a
lawyer? heh heh
I think something like that's a good compromise between too restrictive,
and protecting the material from commercial exploitation by "the bad guys".
There you have my two cents.
Marty
--
50 by Y2K
________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Thom Cheney (tcgrafx@imagina.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 12:53:21 UTC-07:00
Daniel Servatius wrote:
> Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
> Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
> theory)?
We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
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> Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
> Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
> theory)?
We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Bonita McLaughlin (bonitasusan@hotmail.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 12:58:23 UTC-07:00
Daniel Servatius wrote:
>I think we
>should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
>and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
I don't agree. Please do not force those of us who disagree with you, Dan,
to pull our clues from the site. So far, by my count of the posts on this
issue, no one agrees with you. Will the majority rule on this issue, as it
has on others?
Perhaps each individual who agrees with Dan's statement (see above) should
paste it into their clues. Those of us who do not agree with the above
statement and who care about retaining control over the use and distribution
of our clues can add a statement to that effect (such as the one Thom Cheney
suggested).
Can we come to an agreement on how to proceed? It seems clear, from today's
posts anyway, what people want.
Bonnie
_______________________________________________________________
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>I think we
>should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
>and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
I don't agree. Please do not force those of us who disagree with you, Dan,
to pull our clues from the site. So far, by my count of the posts on this
issue, no one agrees with you. Will the majority rule on this issue, as it
has on others?
Perhaps each individual who agrees with Dan's statement (see above) should
paste it into their clues. Those of us who do not agree with the above
statement and who care about retaining control over the use and distribution
of our clues can add a statement to that effect (such as the one Thom Cheney
suggested).
Can we come to an agreement on how to proceed? It seems clear, from today's
posts anyway, what people want.
Bonnie
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: (Sherrijo99@aol.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 16:05:28 UTC-04:00
In a message dated 5/7/99 2:52:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
tcgrafx@imagina.com writes:
>
> Daniel Servatius wrote:
>
> > Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
> > Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
> > theory)?
>
> We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
> begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
> defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
>
> I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
> --
> Thom Cheney
> tcgrafx... among other things
>
Well you asked to here from others. Here goes nothing I have been reading up
on this list trying to figure all the ins and outs of letterboxing and let me
tell you every time I think I am about ready to get my feet wet some new
wrinkle or "problem " crops up. Please just let me say as a real new person
to this idea was drawn to it as good clean outdoor family fun, but it is fast
starting to scare me off. For what it is worth you all might want to think
how these discussions betwwen yourselves might have a way of unnerving new
people from joining in on the fun for fear of doing something wrong or being
in fear of copying something they were not supposed too.
Sorry so long winded but did not know how else to say it
Thanks for your time
Sincerley
Sherri (sherrijo99@aol.com)
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tcgrafx@imagina.com writes:
>
> Daniel Servatius wrote:
>
> > Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
> > Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
> > theory)?
>
> We already have a lengthy disclaimer about personal safety (which I
> begrudgingly support). It seems we live in a litagious society &
> defending our rights is pretty much standard practice these days.
>
> I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from a few others....
> --
> Thom Cheney
> tcgrafx... among other things
>
Well you asked to here from others. Here goes nothing I have been reading up
on this list trying to figure all the ins and outs of letterboxing and let me
tell you every time I think I am about ready to get my feet wet some new
wrinkle or "problem " crops up. Please just let me say as a real new person
to this idea was drawn to it as good clean outdoor family fun, but it is fast
starting to scare me off. For what it is worth you all might want to think
how these discussions betwwen yourselves might have a way of unnerving new
people from joining in on the fun for fear of doing something wrong or being
in fear of copying something they were not supposed too.
Sorry so long winded but did not know how else to say it
Thanks for your time
Sincerley
Sherri (sherrijo99@aol.com)
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[L-USA] Ownership and laws
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 14:00:15 UTC-07:00
Thom Cheney wrote:
> Basically, to keep the honest people honest Dan'l. Probably 90% of
> copyright infringement is by people who don't realize they are
> breaking the law.
Are you sure you want to impose the law on this? I've been very
understanding/respectful of the law (and I believe we always should
be), but esp. in cases where we may find ourselves in trouble if
we do otherwise - I mean particularly in cases where we need protection
from lawsuits. But in this situation the only thing being
accomplished is (in theory) better control of your clues and images.
It is an optional use of the law toward some end that may not even
be realized and which may in turn close the door to some people
who are looking for a real open group. And kids may not understand
it.
I recommend for those who want to do this, that they use the special
notes section of the form to add a statement or to specifically ask
for it to be added. Otherwise you are forcing everyone to state that
they wish to enforce a copyright when perhaps they do not want to.
I'm perfectly OK with others copying, using and/or distributing my
material. Its for fun. Susan Davis made my personal stamp. Who
owns that copyright? I have always assumed that Susan does not
mind me using it without attribution. As a rule I do do that, but
its also OK if I don't. I would think it would be likewise with all
of our material. I'll be greatly disappointed if everyone wants to
enforce copyrighting of materials as I think it detracts from
what we are trying to do. I know this is subjective opinion.
OK. Its just what I'm saying.
Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
theory)? What's wrong with just pulling them from the site
if you don't want them copied? What's wrong with stating in
a note that they should just limit themselves to one printout
for personal use? But then what happens if they make a copy
for a friend? Are they breaking the law? And what if they
do not make a copy for their friend? Did we lose a person
who would otherwise have become involved?
My gut feeling is that we should not do this. I think we
should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
This was the sentiment a few months back when we broke away
on our own. Our premise was to keep it open and above all
free (yet be responsible). If we make a formal declaration
on our page that discourages people from sharing I don't
think its a good thing. I will support it if its what people
want, but I don't think its a good thing, esp. for kids who
may infer that we are providing something other than fun and
creativity.
Its good to hear some of your opinions. It would be nice
to hear from some of the people who do not often make comments.
You out there? Anyone at all out there who does not care if
their material is copyrighted?
Dan'l
St Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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> Basically, to keep the honest people honest Dan'l. Probably 90% of
> copyright infringement is by people who don't realize they are
> breaking the law.
Are you sure you want to impose the law on this? I've been very
understanding/respectful of the law (and I believe we always should
be), but esp. in cases where we may find ourselves in trouble if
we do otherwise - I mean particularly in cases where we need protection
from lawsuits. But in this situation the only thing being
accomplished is (in theory) better control of your clues and images.
It is an optional use of the law toward some end that may not even
be realized and which may in turn close the door to some people
who are looking for a real open group. And kids may not understand
it.
I recommend for those who want to do this, that they use the special
notes section of the form to add a statement or to specifically ask
for it to be added. Otherwise you are forcing everyone to state that
they wish to enforce a copyright when perhaps they do not want to.
I'm perfectly OK with others copying, using and/or distributing my
material. Its for fun. Susan Davis made my personal stamp. Who
owns that copyright? I have always assumed that Susan does not
mind me using it without attribution. As a rule I do do that, but
its also OK if I don't. I would think it would be likewise with all
of our material. I'll be greatly disappointed if everyone wants to
enforce copyrighting of materials as I think it detracts from
what we are trying to do. I know this is subjective opinion.
OK. Its just what I'm saying.
Do we really want to make a formal declaration like this?
Does this not make our material exclusive then (at least in
theory)? What's wrong with just pulling them from the site
if you don't want them copied? What's wrong with stating in
a note that they should just limit themselves to one printout
for personal use? But then what happens if they make a copy
for a friend? Are they breaking the law? And what if they
do not make a copy for their friend? Did we lose a person
who would otherwise have become involved?
My gut feeling is that we should not do this. I think we
should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
This was the sentiment a few months back when we broke away
on our own. Our premise was to keep it open and above all
free (yet be responsible). If we make a formal declaration
on our page that discourages people from sharing I don't
think its a good thing. I will support it if its what people
want, but I don't think its a good thing, esp. for kids who
may infer that we are providing something other than fun and
creativity.
Its good to hear some of your opinions. It would be nice
to hear from some of the people who do not often make comments.
You out there? Anyone at all out there who does not care if
their material is copyrighted?
Dan'l
St Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: erik/susan davis (davisarc@wcvt.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 15:05:24 UTC-07:00
Another take on this subject - some simple, blanket statement about free
not-for-profit distribution is called for.
As Thom accurately says, these are already copyrighted by virtue of
their very existance, so in reality we could choose to do nothing.
However, by making a statement of some sort, we also tell the world that
we respect our work enough to identify it as "intellectual property", or
as "art." And, keeping the honest person honest is always a good goal.
In reality, enforcement would probably never be necessary. But, what if
these stamps become very collectible? What if someone collects (or
downloads) a stamp image, decides that it is marketable, has it
reproduced in quantity and it winds up on the shelf of K-MART? Who does
that benefit, except for the merchant, at the artist's expense.
How would we feel if someone published a letterboxing USA guide, copied
Mitch's masthead from the page, maybe changed one photo, claimed
artistic ownership, and made some real cash for the effort? Mitch would
be upset, I am sure, as would I.
I think we can craft a very benign reminder, and let that be the end of
it.
I do, however, understand Dan's fears about straying from our 'free and
open" attitude, I jusst think that this is not in conflict.
Erik
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not-for-profit distribution is called for.
As Thom accurately says, these are already copyrighted by virtue of
their very existance, so in reality we could choose to do nothing.
However, by making a statement of some sort, we also tell the world that
we respect our work enough to identify it as "intellectual property", or
as "art." And, keeping the honest person honest is always a good goal.
In reality, enforcement would probably never be necessary. But, what if
these stamps become very collectible? What if someone collects (or
downloads) a stamp image, decides that it is marketable, has it
reproduced in quantity and it winds up on the shelf of K-MART? Who does
that benefit, except for the merchant, at the artist's expense.
How would we feel if someone published a letterboxing USA guide, copied
Mitch's masthead from the page, maybe changed one photo, claimed
artistic ownership, and made some real cash for the effort? Mitch would
be upset, I am sure, as would I.
I think we can craft a very benign reminder, and let that be the end of
it.
I do, however, understand Dan's fears about straying from our 'free and
open" attitude, I jusst think that this is not in conflict.
Erik
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Daniel Servatius (elf@pclink.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 17:30:35 UTC-05:00
Sherrijo99@aol.com wrote:
> > I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from
> > a few others....
> > Thom Cheney
> >
> Well you asked to hear from others. Here goes...
> For what it is worth you all might want to think
> how these discussions between yourselves might have
> a way of unnerving new people from joining in on
> the fun...
No, I for one do not want to unnerve new people. I like
hearing from new people. Thank you very much for speaking
up. I hope more people will do that. I don't want to
alienate you or anyone else who tends to be more quiet.
I understand why you tend not to say much on this list and
I just want to say that I hope the environment will change
so you will feel more free, more welcome.
Somebody said Sherri that its not likely that anyone will
prosecute or enforce the copyright of their material. I
believe this to be true. At the same time I am bothered
that we have to take up the concern so dramatically as to
potentially scare people off. I especially wonder what
it says to kids about what we're doing, what we're about.
I'd like to risk going further into a corner than I already
am on this if I might (is that even possible?). Well, here
goes: What about not being too artistic? This is not meant
as a slam to artists so please, please don't take it that way.
I love art and I respect people who put their life into art.
I recently received a slide from one of the artists in our
group and I spent fully an hour looking at it (in silence)
and I was awestruck by the attention to detail and the
quality of the piece. I will never forget it. But I'm
just wondering if the web, letterboxing, and what we are
doing in particular with letterboxing USA is something else.
I'm not saying it has no artisitic value, quite the contrary.
I'm just wondering if the value lies more in what we are
doing by cooperating and becoming friends (if even in a
limited way) and included in that would be the value of what
we've created (as a whole) - this is perhaps much greater
and is perhaps a more real value in the long-term than any one
element, whether it is a stamp image, a clue or a web program.
I'd like the new people and young people in particular to
see our rapport and our aplomb: our down-to-earth common
good nature and willingness to work together. Many of
them are holding back and just waiting for the moment for
all of us to lighten up a bit. I'm weary whenever we start
to talk about legal issues. I know we must do this at times
and I've done it as much as anyone. I especially don't mind
it if it protects us and helps us to preserve the fun. But
don't we go a little beyond what's necessary to do that
at times?
Is anyone a lawyer? I'd like to know if its possible to
do this stuff so kids (or anyone with a little education) can
make sense of it. I mean what are we trying to say? -
"You can copy anything here that you want as long as you use
it for letterboxing and do not make money from it." Is that
what we mean to say? If so, what's wrong with just adding
that to the waiver we already have? Since virtually every
clue is linked to it this would cover all concerned.
Does anyone have any objection to this, and, if not, can I just
make that change so we can get back to what we were doing before?
I'm interested in hearing what some of the new people have to
say if they are still willing to put in their piece.
I know we're going to have more problems in the future. We would
have to be dead if we didn't. I'm just hoping that in general
we will begin to have a better understanding of what we need to
do for newbies, kids and others who may be more hesitant than the
rest of us.
Sincerely,
Dan'l
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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> > I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from
> > a few others....
> > Thom Cheney
> >
> Well you asked to hear from others. Here goes...
> For what it is worth you all might want to think
> how these discussions between yourselves might have
> a way of unnerving new people from joining in on
> the fun...
No, I for one do not want to unnerve new people. I like
hearing from new people. Thank you very much for speaking
up. I hope more people will do that. I don't want to
alienate you or anyone else who tends to be more quiet.
I understand why you tend not to say much on this list and
I just want to say that I hope the environment will change
so you will feel more free, more welcome.
Somebody said Sherri that its not likely that anyone will
prosecute or enforce the copyright of their material. I
believe this to be true. At the same time I am bothered
that we have to take up the concern so dramatically as to
potentially scare people off. I especially wonder what
it says to kids about what we're doing, what we're about.
I'd like to risk going further into a corner than I already
am on this if I might (is that even possible?). Well, here
goes: What about not being too artistic? This is not meant
as a slam to artists so please, please don't take it that way.
I love art and I respect people who put their life into art.
I recently received a slide from one of the artists in our
group and I spent fully an hour looking at it (in silence)
and I was awestruck by the attention to detail and the
quality of the piece. I will never forget it. But I'm
just wondering if the web, letterboxing, and what we are
doing in particular with letterboxing USA is something else.
I'm not saying it has no artisitic value, quite the contrary.
I'm just wondering if the value lies more in what we are
doing by cooperating and becoming friends (if even in a
limited way) and included in that would be the value of what
we've created (as a whole) - this is perhaps much greater
and is perhaps a more real value in the long-term than any one
element, whether it is a stamp image, a clue or a web program.
I'd like the new people and young people in particular to
see our rapport and our aplomb: our down-to-earth common
good nature and willingness to work together. Many of
them are holding back and just waiting for the moment for
all of us to lighten up a bit. I'm weary whenever we start
to talk about legal issues. I know we must do this at times
and I've done it as much as anyone. I especially don't mind
it if it protects us and helps us to preserve the fun. But
don't we go a little beyond what's necessary to do that
at times?
Is anyone a lawyer? I'd like to know if its possible to
do this stuff so kids (or anyone with a little education) can
make sense of it. I mean what are we trying to say? -
"You can copy anything here that you want as long as you use
it for letterboxing and do not make money from it." Is that
what we mean to say? If so, what's wrong with just adding
that to the waiver we already have? Since virtually every
clue is linked to it this would cover all concerned.
Does anyone have any objection to this, and, if not, can I just
make that change so we can get back to what we were doing before?
I'm interested in hearing what some of the new people have to
say if they are still willing to put in their piece.
I know we're going to have more problems in the future. We would
have to be dead if we didn't. I'm just hoping that in general
we will begin to have a better understanding of what we need to
do for newbies, kids and others who may be more hesitant than the
rest of us.
Sincerely,
Dan'l
St. Paul, MN
mailto:elf@pclink.com
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: CLARK Cara D (cara.d.clark@co.multnomah.or.us) |
Date: 1999-05-07 15:59:12 UTC-07:00
Hmmm... are thse the two points of view, basically, that are being debated?
Are they entirely mutually exclusive? Can they be boiled down to an
essential point of view that all can agree on? Do you guys try for
consensus or majority?
Daniel Servatius wrote:
>I think we
>should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
>and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
Thom Cheney wrote:
>I support a copyright page on the website that makes it clear.. we
>encourage use of the clues & art for the purpose of finding
>letterboxes. Any use for redistribution or publishing is otherwise
>expressly prohibited without the signed permission of the artist. The
>safety statement that the Graphic Artist Guild recommends is: "All
>other rights, unless specifically granted are retained by the
>artist(s)." That pretty much covers any contingencies.
Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will and
I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain are
my Oregon heritage!!) I can see why all theses viewpoints are valid in their
own way. If I had some clues and stamps on the web, I'd not want them to be
changed or utilized in some forum other than simply looking for the
letterbox unbeknownst to me. If someone took my info from the web, put it
in a booklet that was for SALE only, I would think that uncouth, and I could
do something, legally, to stop such person from selling what is intended to
be given freely. It could require a lot of hoop jumping and legal headaches,
though. If there were some sort of statement that is included with the clues
(there were several excellent ideas mentioned earlier) then there would be a
sort of legal (maybe :) ) precedent set that states that the material used
is owned by it's creator and that
fun with it, but don't sell it or do stuff to alter it that I don't know
about>. IE; Be considerate and ask first. I'm rambling... I don't think that
any such statement will disuade a newcomer, and I do agree that it's sad
that our society is so litigious that anyone would have to even think of
these things. I was surprised even to see the disclaimer about injuries
when I first saw the website. I laughed, in a jaded sort of way, but
realized that someone, somewhere might blame a letterboxer if he or she got
hurt while seeking for the box.
Also, I really like the "what's new" idea for the web site.
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Are they entirely mutually exclusive? Can they be boiled down to an
essential point of view that all can agree on? Do you guys try for
consensus or majority?
Daniel Servatius wrote:
>I think we
>should state unequivocally that the materials may be shared
>and freely distributed without atrribution if so desired.
Thom Cheney wrote:
>I support a copyright page on the website that makes it clear.. we
>encourage use of the clues & art for the purpose of finding
>letterboxes. Any use for redistribution or publishing is otherwise
>expressly prohibited without the signed permission of the artist. The
>safety statement that the Graphic Artist Guild recommends is: "All
>other rights, unless specifically granted are retained by the
>artist(s)." That pretty much covers any contingencies.
Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will and
I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain are
my Oregon heritage!!) I can see why all theses viewpoints are valid in their
own way. If I had some clues and stamps on the web, I'd not want them to be
changed or utilized in some forum other than simply looking for the
letterbox unbeknownst to me. If someone took my info from the web, put it
in a booklet that was for SALE only, I would think that uncouth, and I could
do something, legally, to stop such person from selling what is intended to
be given freely. It could require a lot of hoop jumping and legal headaches,
though. If there were some sort of statement that is included with the clues
(there were several excellent ideas mentioned earlier) then there would be a
sort of legal (maybe :) ) precedent set that states that the material used
is owned by it's creator and that
about>. IE; Be considerate and ask first. I'm rambling... I don't think that
any such statement will disuade a newcomer, and I do agree that it's sad
that our society is so litigious that anyone would have to even think of
these things. I was surprised even to see the disclaimer about injuries
when I first saw the website. I laughed, in a jaded sort of way, but
realized that someone, somewhere might blame a letterboxer if he or she got
hurt while seeking for the box.
Also, I really like the "what's new" idea for the web site.
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Thom Cheney (tcgrafx@imagina.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 16:26:46 UTC-07:00
CLARK Cara D wrote:
>
> Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will and
> I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain are
> my Oregon heritage!!)
Wow!! Cool!!!! Yipes! I'd better get Rock Creek #1 back out
there....!!!!!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
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>
> Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will and
> I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain are
> my Oregon heritage!!)
Wow!! Cool!!!! Yipes! I'd better get Rock Creek #1 back out
there....!!!!!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: CLARK Cara D (cara.d.clark@co.multnomah.or.us) |
Date: 1999-05-07 16:28:06 UTC-07:00
Yes, Thom, and make it snappy! :) And don't spy on me to see how inept I am
at finding the letterbox...heh heh
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Cheney [mailto:tcgrafx@imagina.com]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 4:27 PM
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Subject: [L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
CLARK Cara D wrote:
>
> Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will
and
> I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain
are
> my Oregon heritage!!)
Wow!! Cool!!!! Yipes! I'd better get Rock Creek #1 back out
there....!!!!!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
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at finding the letterbox...heh heh
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Cheney [mailto:tcgrafx@imagina.com]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 1999 4:27 PM
To: letterbox-usa@egroups.com
Subject: [L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
CLARK Cara D wrote:
>
> Even though I haven't actually found a darn letterbox yet (Sunday I will
and
> I don't care how hard it's raining...besides-- waterfalls, mud and rain
are
> my Oregon heritage!!)
Wow!! Cool!!!! Yipes! I'd better get Rock Creek #1 back out
there....!!!!!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: Thom Cheney (tcgrafx@imagina.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 16:44:35 UTC-07:00
CLARK Cara D wrote:
>
> Yes, Thom, and make it snappy! :) And don't spy on me to see how inept I am
> at finding the letterbox...heh heh
this will be tough... the trail goes right past my livingroom window...
I'll be scrutinizing everyone who goes by on Sunday.
good luck!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> Yes, Thom, and make it snappy! :) And don't spy on me to see how inept I am
> at finding the letterbox...heh heh
this will be tough... the trail goes right past my livingroom window...
I'll be scrutinizing everyone who goes by on Sunday.
good luck!
--
Thom Cheney
tcgrafx... among other things
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[L-USA] Re: Fwd: Ownership and laws
From: (Sherrijo99@aol.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 20:14:18 UTC-04:00
In a message dated 5/7/99 5:35:24 PM Central Daylight Time, elf@pclink.com
writes:
> Sherrijo99@aol.com wrote:
> > > I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from
> > > a few others....
> > > Thom Cheney
> > >
> > Well you asked to hear from others. Here goes...
> > For what it is worth you all might want to think
> > how these discussions between yourselves might have
> > a way of unnerving new people from joining in on
> > the fun...
>
> No, I for one do not want to unnerve new people. I like
> hearing from new people. Thank you very much for speaking
> up. I hope more people will do that. I don't want to
> alienate you or anyone else who tends to be more quiet.
> I understand why you tend not to say much on this list and
> I just want to say that I hope the environment will change
> so you will feel more free, more welcome.
>
> Somebody said Sherri that its not likely that anyone will
> prosecute or enforce the copyright of their material. I
> believe this to be true. At the same time I am bothered
> that we have to take up the concern so dramatically as to
> potentially scare people off. I especially wonder what
> it says to kids about what we're doing, what we're about.
>
> I'd like to risk going further into a corner than I already
> am on this if I might (is that even possible?). Well, here
> goes: What about not being too artistic? This is not meant
> as a slam to artists so please, please don't take it that way.
> I love art and I respect people who put their life into art.
> I recently received a slide from one of the artists in our
> group and I spent fully an hour looking at it (in silence)
> and I was awestruck by the attention to detail and the
> quality of the piece. I will never forget it. But I'm
> just wondering if the web, letterboxing, and what we are
> doing in particular with letterboxing USA is something else.
> I'm not saying it has no artisitic value, quite the contrary.
> I'm just wondering if the value lies more in what we are
> doing by cooperating and becoming friends (if even in a
> limited way) and included in that would be the value of what
> we've created (as a whole) - this is perhaps much greater
> and is perhaps a more real value in the long-term than any one
> element, whether it is a stamp image, a clue or a web program.
>
> I'd like the new people and young people in particular to
> see our rapport and our aplomb: our down-to-earth common
> good nature and willingness to work together. Many of
> them are holding back and just waiting for the moment for
> all of us to lighten up a bit. I'm weary whenever we start
> to talk about legal issues. I know we must do this at times
> and I've done it as much as anyone. I especially don't mind
> it if it protects us and helps us to preserve the fun. But
> don't we go a little beyond what's necessary to do that
> at times?
>
> Is anyone a lawyer? I'd like to know if its possible to
> do this stuff so kids (or anyone with a little education) can
> make sense of it. I mean what are we trying to say? -
> "You can copy anything here that you want as long as you use
> it for letterboxing and do not make money from it." Is that
> what we mean to say? If so, what's wrong with just adding
> that to the waiver we already have? Since virtually every
> clue is linked to it this would cover all concerned.
>
> Does anyone have any objection to this, and, if not, can I just
> make that change so we can get back to what we were doing before?
> I'm interested in hearing what some of the new people have to
> say if they are still willing to put in their piece.
>
> I know we're going to have more problems in the future. We would
> have to be dead if we didn't. I'm just hoping that in general
> we will begin to have a better understanding of what we need to
> do for newbies, kids and others who may be more hesitant than the
> rest of us.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dan'l
> St. Paul, MN
> mailto:elf@pclink.com
>
OH boy feel like I have really stuck my foot in it now But the point I was
trying to make was I was agreeing with Dan'l about keeping it as simple as
possible.
help please to any and all that I may have offend please forgive my inept way
of speaking my piece
Sincerely,
Sherri
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writes:
> Sherrijo99@aol.com wrote:
> > > I have already given my opinion. Let's hear from
> > > a few others....
> > > Thom Cheney
> > >
> > Well you asked to hear from others. Here goes...
> > For what it is worth you all might want to think
> > how these discussions between yourselves might have
> > a way of unnerving new people from joining in on
> > the fun...
>
> No, I for one do not want to unnerve new people. I like
> hearing from new people. Thank you very much for speaking
> up. I hope more people will do that. I don't want to
> alienate you or anyone else who tends to be more quiet.
> I understand why you tend not to say much on this list and
> I just want to say that I hope the environment will change
> so you will feel more free, more welcome.
>
> Somebody said Sherri that its not likely that anyone will
> prosecute or enforce the copyright of their material. I
> believe this to be true. At the same time I am bothered
> that we have to take up the concern so dramatically as to
> potentially scare people off. I especially wonder what
> it says to kids about what we're doing, what we're about.
>
> I'd like to risk going further into a corner than I already
> am on this if I might (is that even possible?). Well, here
> goes: What about not being too artistic? This is not meant
> as a slam to artists so please, please don't take it that way.
> I love art and I respect people who put their life into art.
> I recently received a slide from one of the artists in our
> group and I spent fully an hour looking at it (in silence)
> and I was awestruck by the attention to detail and the
> quality of the piece. I will never forget it. But I'm
> just wondering if the web, letterboxing, and what we are
> doing in particular with letterboxing USA is something else.
> I'm not saying it has no artisitic value, quite the contrary.
> I'm just wondering if the value lies more in what we are
> doing by cooperating and becoming friends (if even in a
> limited way) and included in that would be the value of what
> we've created (as a whole) - this is perhaps much greater
> and is perhaps a more real value in the long-term than any one
> element, whether it is a stamp image, a clue or a web program.
>
> I'd like the new people and young people in particular to
> see our rapport and our aplomb: our down-to-earth common
> good nature and willingness to work together. Many of
> them are holding back and just waiting for the moment for
> all of us to lighten up a bit. I'm weary whenever we start
> to talk about legal issues. I know we must do this at times
> and I've done it as much as anyone. I especially don't mind
> it if it protects us and helps us to preserve the fun. But
> don't we go a little beyond what's necessary to do that
> at times?
>
> Is anyone a lawyer? I'd like to know if its possible to
> do this stuff so kids (or anyone with a little education) can
> make sense of it. I mean what are we trying to say? -
> "You can copy anything here that you want as long as you use
> it for letterboxing and do not make money from it." Is that
> what we mean to say? If so, what's wrong with just adding
> that to the waiver we already have? Since virtually every
> clue is linked to it this would cover all concerned.
>
> Does anyone have any objection to this, and, if not, can I just
> make that change so we can get back to what we were doing before?
> I'm interested in hearing what some of the new people have to
> say if they are still willing to put in their piece.
>
> I know we're going to have more problems in the future. We would
> have to be dead if we didn't. I'm just hoping that in general
> we will begin to have a better understanding of what we need to
> do for newbies, kids and others who may be more hesitant than the
> rest of us.
>
> Sincerely,
> Dan'l
> St. Paul, MN
> mailto:elf@pclink.com
>
OH boy feel like I have really stuck my foot in it now But the point I was
trying to make was I was agreeing with Dan'l about keeping it as simple as
possible.
help please to any and all that I may have offend please forgive my inept way
of speaking my piece
Sincerely,
Sherri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[L-USA] Re: Ownership and laws
From: erik/susan davis (davisarc@wcvt.com) |
Date: 1999-05-07 18:48:33 UTC-07:00
Thom Cheney wrote:
>
> CLARK Cara D wrote:
> >
> > Yes, Thom, and make it snappy! :) And don't spy on me to see how inept I am
> > at finding the letterbox...heh heh
>
> this will be tough... the trail goes right past my livingroom window...
> I'll be scrutinizing everyone who goes by on Sunday.
>
> good luck!
>
> --
> Thom Cheney
Boy! Talk about intimidation!
ERik
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>
> CLARK Cara D wrote:
> >
> > Yes, Thom, and make it snappy! :) And don't spy on me to see how inept I am
> > at finding the letterbox...heh heh
>
> this will be tough... the trail goes right past my livingroom window...
> I'll be scrutinizing everyone who goes by on Sunday.
>
> good luck!
>
> --
> Thom Cheney
Boy! Talk about intimidation!
ERik
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[L-USA] Re: Fwd: Ownership and laws
From: jjp (exposto1@airmail.net) |
Date: 1999-05-08 00:36:02 UTC-05:00
Whoa! Checking e-mail I see a long list of OWNERSHIP messages. I'm not
reading them. These long discussions about how to do things wear me out.
I'm here to talk about letterboxing. Let everybody tell us what they want
to do with their images, clues, etc. and let it go. We don't have to agree
or match up in any way. Our clues vary as much as our personalities. I
don't think any of us know enough to start making rules for each other. I
don't think any of us is more responsible than another for the little
letterboxing dance we're trying to do...
I don't think going round and round about this stuff resolves anything.
And it's certainly not a very friendly place to be when it's happening.
Julie
"There is no path to Peace. Peace is the path." Gandhi
It's the Atmospheric Cookie!
http://members.tripod.com/~anniespark1e/links.html
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reading them. These long discussions about how to do things wear me out.
I'm here to talk about letterboxing. Let everybody tell us what they want
to do with their images, clues, etc. and let it go. We don't have to agree
or match up in any way. Our clues vary as much as our personalities. I
don't think any of us know enough to start making rules for each other. I
don't think any of us is more responsible than another for the little
letterboxing dance we're trying to do...
I don't think going round and round about this stuff resolves anything.
And it's certainly not a very friendly place to be when it's happening.
Julie
"There is no path to Peace. Peace is the path." Gandhi
It's the Atmospheric Cookie!
http://members.tripod.com/~anniespark1e/links.html
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